Episode 9: Set Up to Fail?

Erin: [00:00:00] Hey, I’m excited to have you back for another episode of the MLM exposed podcast. Don’t let the title freak you out. We’re not anti MLM and these are not bash sessions. We are however, pro truth and pro dialogue and you deserve to hear it all. The good, the bad, and the ugly. If you’re new to our community, we drop a new podcast each week.

Everyone here has a story to tell. Some may horrify you, some you’ll relate to, but no matter what, the best lessons learned are through the experiences of others. And we think those stories are worth sharing. If this episode helps you, please subscribe so you don’t miss a thing, and even better, leave a review.

Unless it’s bad, then keep your opinions to yourself. J. K.! We love the truth here. Thank you again for being with us. At MLM Exposed, we believe firmly that when you know better, you do better. And we think this conversation is more relevant than ever. All my fools begin to howl, wake me up, the time is now.[00:01:00]

Can you hear the drumming? There’s a revolution coming!

Okay, I’m super excited for this one because Amber is a good friend of mine and freaking hilarious and I know her story but I, what’s funny is that I was just quizzing you, um, prior to clicking record and I know bits and pieces but I don’t know the whole shebang, so. Super stoked. We’re going to go back in history and, um, go back in time to how you got started in MLM.

What the heck brought you there?

Amber: Um, well, I hated MLM for six years. I hated it. I was the anti MLM girl online. Pooped on them every day. Like, don’t talk to me. Don’t message me. I’m not going to do your weight loss fitness thing. I like being fat. Leave me alone. And it was because my best friend was in an MLM for six years and doing decent at it.

Pretty [00:02:00] good on MLM, you know, statistics. Like, you don’t have to be that great to be the greatest. And so she, um, always, you know, had this network of people that were trying to poach me every day of my life and it was awful and annoying. So. But then I lost my job because I had to stay home and with my kids and I had no income at all, which was fine because my husband took really good care of us.

But I was bored and I was like, Ooh, tax advantages of having an online business. I can hang out with my best friend and we can write it off. And that’s why I chose the wine one because I was like, I drink wine and this can be a tax write off so we can travel, hang out together, write it off, and I’m not looking for anything other than that because I never for two seconds thought I was going to make any real money.

It was a joke. Well,

Erin: and so, so I want to do to give you that little quick description because, um, that’s how Amber and I knew of each other was this. [00:03:00] It was her first business, my, you know, like, 14th business, not really, it was what would have been my, like, third business, and I was, like, on the downhill slope of my loser bill, and she was just entering the world.

But, you said that you lost your job, but weren’t you in, weren’t you a paralegal? Didn’t you do some legal stuff? Yeah.

Amber: I was a full time paralegal and I didn’t lose my job. I quit, but like, I was going to lose it. Cause I just could not stand, you know, being treated so terribly all the time. And you just, you know, like I got a bonus, a Christmas bonus and it was

uh, we’re going to forgive a debt you didn’t have for hours you didn’t work, even though your salary, like that was in my Christmas card. We forgave a $400 debt. And I was like, I’m out. You know, I worked for also sold real estate on the side, but then I had to homeschool, um, in New York, I was forced to homeschool at that same time.

And so then I was like, all this money that I was making between, I was also court clerk, so I had three jobs down to zero [00:04:00] jobs. And, uh, I need to fill in the brain gap because when I wasn’t doing something, my brain was like, what are you doing with your brain? And I was going down all the rabbit holes. I was like, I need something to do with my time.

And so, yeah, the wine thing looked fun. Um, I don’t know that anybody actually had any success in it, but we did drink a lot. What was

Erin: the selling point for you? Like what I’ll, I think we’ve talked about this before, but I’ll tell you what got me into wine, but what was the thing I know it was your best friend.

She was doing it already, but what was the appealing about wine to you?

Amber: Um, the fact that we could have parties and, and write them off and write off travel and go places that cost thousands of dollars and then reduce our tax liability because we own a construction company and our taxes in New York state were out the ceiling and I knew from working at the law firm, we would create [00:05:00] businesses for rich doctors and dentists that were salaried so they could dump their money into them and they could like reduce their tax liability.

I’m like, this is the same concept. This is brilliant. I think everyone should have a side business for tax purposes alone. So you can write off your cell phone bill, write off mileage, write off office space, write off all this overhead that you can’t get these tax benefits from if you don’t have a side business.

Erin: No, I totally agree. Okay. So then give me the timeline. How did it go?

Amber: So, you know, we were founders.

Erin: No, I don’t think we were in that

Amber: early. We were founders. So you could write founders on your, um, business card if you wanted to. And, um, so we were in before you could even be in ground floor opportunity. Uh, no product, but trust us. It’s coming. Uh, it’s going to be great. What did

Erin: that look like? What did it look like when you were in as a founder before the product came?

What did they tell you to do?

Amber: [00:06:00] Oh, um, they, there were no instructions. I’m, there was just, there was nothing. It was just, you know, Ooh, this is exciting. And you’ll be the first, you know, what do they say? We’re going to build your legs for you. And you’re going to have all, everything that’s coming into the company is going underneath you.

And I’m like, wow, that sounds too good to be true because it is.

Erin: Okay. So you start, you guys do a lot of parties. So, yeah, but

I

Amber: didn’t enroll anyone off of them, we were just addos. Oh my god, how

Erin: long did you sign up as a founder before the product came?

Amber: Um, it wasn’t too long. I don’t know, maybe a couple of months.

So the wine came and the wine was great. Um, so much glyphosate in it that I ended up in renal failure, but that’s a different conversation. Lovely. Um, yeah, created a drinking problem. I gained 10 pounds and I recruited though success. Let’s talk about the success. I recruited 96 [00:07:00] builders. Okay, um, and I have three customers.

Yeah, why wasn’t

Erin: that? Give the, give the logistical answer as to why it was more valuable to recruit a wine distributor, whatever they called us, versus…

Amber: Yeah, uh, so if you had someone come on as a builder, Well, one, they get the tax benefits. That was all I had to work with. That was the only pitch I had because that’s all there was.

’cause I knew no one was really ever gonna make any money here, um, other than startup bonus. So you get someone to buy $500 worth of wine and I know people that will buy 500 worth of wine. Yeah, you get paid startup bonus, 250 bucks. So $250 times 96 was 99% of the income I made while I was there because if you sold as a customer, I think we were paid like $2 per $99 customer back.

Mm-hmm. .

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:00] $2. What would you pick? I always thought about this too. Um, that those $500 wine kits, we sold a lot of $500 wine kits and for us, the appeal. I was long gone with the taxes. I mean, in fact, I was like drowning in tax debt because of my MLM business where nobody prepared me for my finances.

So that’s a whole nother round of PTSD that I have, but we recruited all these 500 kids. Not really understanding that people were spending 500 on what? 12 bottles of wine. 50 of wine. Half of that wine was like 7 at the local liquor store. Did you ever find any wine?

Amber: Yeah, it was fun when people brought that to my attention.

Saying, Hi, this is at my local grocer for $6 and I paid $38 for it from you. Um, little things like that happened over time or just kind of made me, you know, embarrassed. And I, every single person that I brought into the [00:09:00] company was a friend of mine. And I didn’t have set expectations of you’re going to make a lot of money.

I was very real about it. We’re just doing this so we can all hang out and all write it off and all have wine. And if we make some money, that’ll be fun. Um, and, and that’s pretty much all we ever did, even though. Even though I was the best of the best, top

dog over here, uh, making 18 grand a year,

Erin: top 10. Didn’t they do the weekly standings or whatever? Top paid, top recruiters, top, et cetera.

Amber: Yeah. And that, that was when we found out how much the top two or three people were making, and then we were in the top 10 knowing what we were making. The gap between three and four was like 20, 000.

And so my brain is, you know, I work for a law firm and investigative. And I was like, these are bridge contracts. These are, they’re getting paid in addition to the comp plan. I have more [00:10:00] distributors than they do. And they’re making 10 to 20 grand a month. And I’m only making like the best highest month was like three grand.

Maybe what, where’s the, how am I going to reach that gap? There’s not enough people in the whole world to reach that gap. Right. And I was like Did you ever did you ever question them? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, they even brought me on a zoom and they were saying we’re working on getting rid of these bridge contracts so that we can have an organic organization.

We’re going to improve the compensation plan. So that, um, there is a realistic possibility for an income and just wait and new management and it’s coming. And so we went and had an event in Florida, um, in March, four years ago with the president and his wife of the company. And, um, he presented the new and improved plan.

And then he asked me in front of everybody there, and there are witnesses, lots of them. He said, [00:11:00] what do you think? And I said, you’re going to get shut down by the FTC because all you’ve done is improve the incentive of recruiting. And when you have more builders and you do customers, it’s a lopsided scale.

It’s destined for failure. People are only buying the product for the incentive of making money. It doesn’t stand alone on its own product. It will get shut down by the FTC. And I don’t think. I don’t think anyone really liked that. I said that, but it was the truth. And then months later, they ended up going out of business.

Erin: Did they go out of business or did the

FTC

Amber: shut them down? So they were being investigated and um, was what I was told was that they were working on cleaning up some management issues that were creating some problems. So I don’t necessarily know that they were served anything or filed anything and then they were, they transitioned to the company and they just passed the customers into another wine company and dipped out and didn’t [00:12:00] pay us either.

So like we had all this money in the vault, not like a lot, 300 a check at a time. And I would let them sit there for a while because they weren’t even worth cashing out until I had a couple of paychecks for it. Um, but yeah, they, they didn’t pay anybody the last, whatever was in the vault.

So if you left six months in the vault, two months in the vault, one month in the vault, no one got a single dollar of it. Wow.

Erin: What, what year was that? I didn’t know any of this. So this was during that period of time where they were shutting down. Did people know they were shutting down? I mean, did people lose vault money?

Did they just like walk away without it?

Amber: Yes.

Erin: Wow. I did not know that. I did not know how they went down. I just knew that I went running away as fast as I possibly could.

Amber: Yeah, we ran after that event. Um, that’s when I decided to leave. I had already had a, I had stopped recruiting for six months [00:13:00] waiting for this new plan because I couldn’t with integrity bring people in once I realized that it was a setup.

And for people to lose, they were just using us as the, you know, purchasing power to funnel the money into other people’s checks. The comp plan never made much sense anyway, but this just really highlighted how absolutely zero integrity there was.

Erin: , so I’m going to pick your brain because I know that you’ll know the intricacies of it. And it’s one of the things that I want to dig into on this podcast is just different. Not to like evaluate, you know, what’s going to make you money.

It’s not in that sense, but the way that compensation plans are designed, um, this is a phrase I use a lot. Compensation plans drive behavior, but they’re also designed for a purpose. For me from the outside in that dang binary that comp plan for wine in my mind probably I was a functioning alcoholic at the [00:14:00] time.

So yay drink wine get paid sounded really amazing But two in that space you’re taught certain comp plans are harder than others and certain are Etc. And that binary for me it had two legs and when you enrolled customers or builder who? Let’s be real. Who enrolled? There were no customers. No, but there were no customers.

But when you enrolled people to come and drink wine, get paid, they either went left or they went right. And so I actually just saw a post on my memories where I was like freaking out excited because I had had like 30 emails that day of people being added to my team. Because whoever was above me all of a sudden was enrolling and they had dropped down into my business, but what I then eventually understood and it took me longer than, than is, than it should have because I, in my mind, I think I’m an intelligent person, but it took me a while to understand that.

Even if [00:15:00] 10,000 people had gotten added to my business, I’m not getting paid one single dollar. And none of those people are getting paid one single dollar on any of the volume that goes under them. And really nobody’s making any dollars. They’re just buying line kits. What, what would be your analysis of that kind of binary compensation?

Why do they build it like that? Why does it seem so appealing? And then what’s the truth?

Amber: So I never really studied comp plans when I first went in. ’cause it was, I figured they all were crap ’cause I never knew anyone that made any real money doing any of it. Um, and they always bouncing around, company to company, company.

If it’s so great, why you always leaving? Right? So I just never had any faith, didn’t care. But I did have someone I trusted and very intelligent businessman and his wife wanted to enroll with me when he got on the phone with me and he looked at the comp plan and he said, Amber, you’re a smart girl. He was like, but tell me why getting paid on half of your business makes any sense.[00:16:00]

Yeah. He’s like the binary compensation plan is an absolute disgrace to all entrepreneurs. And I, and I, you know, I’m a, I’m a person that I like the truth. I like the truth and it didn’t hurt my feelings. And I was like, I appreciate your feedback. And then I sat on that thought for a while and I thought about it and I was still, you know, relative to like a year in just having fun and everyone’s like, you’re so great, let me do a trick.

Yeah, I trade people now, but the money was going to come, you know, it’s coming. It takes five years to get a business up and running and the first year you lose money. The second year you make money and I’ve, we’re a brick and mortar owner of the business. We have employees, we have overhead, we have workers compensation insurance and general liability insurance.

And here I was like, I got no overhead. Like this is genius in that way. If the money does ever come and [00:17:00] probably year two, I was like, the money’s not coming. It’s never going to come. It’s never going to go. So now what? And so, yeah. That was hard to hear, but it was the truth. I don’t, when I see people with this binary plan, I’m like, so who gets the money, right?

Erin: Who’s getting that? Your response though, when they say, yeah, it’s 50% of my business, but some of it is placed. Because that’s what got me is that, you know, I’m only having to worry about that one leg because the other one is just volume coming up from somebody above. What is your response to that?

Amber: Well, that sounds like lottery.

I hope that somebody gives me something that I won’t get paid on. This makes no sense. But even if you were to like, consider why would you not expect to get, if you did get placements. What is the point of a placement if you don’t get paid on it? [00:18:00] Right. So what is the incentive? The incentive is you’ll get paid more on your own business because you’re only going to get paid on your shorter leg and you’re going to put everything in that leg and only if you’ve been enrolled by someone who’s a heavy enroller who can dump a non paid leg a bunch of people into your business.

It’s just a freaking, as a person of intelligence, I look back and I am ashamed of myself.

Erin: I think that’s the theme of the podcast. I mean really I know I’m going to interview some people I have some mamas coming on that have like straight up trauma. I mean like horrible things were said to her things, you know, people were mean it was really ugly But a lot of it, like, for me, yeah, I have some trauma, but it’s mainly trauma that I caused myself.

Like, it’s mainly just some shame. Like, if I could just delete that portion of my life, like, and what’s crazy is that, that business was your first [00:19:00] round, and so it’s very interesting, like, you coming in thinking it was just a tax write off, and knowing that you weren’t going to make much, like, I wish I would have come into that, but I was like, we’re, look, I’ll be rich!

We love wine!

Amber: It’s going to be awesome. And

Erin: that was my third round. Like I, it should have had plenty of time to learn from my mistakes,

Amber: but well, I, I see that still to this day through social media and through my network of people who they’re on their six, seven, eight, nine, and I’m like, I’m not sure when it starts to become a huge problem, but I’m guessing that it will eventually, you know, you got to learn your lesson.

And my lesson was learned by watching other people. Like I couldn’t name, and I had a really big network. I couldn’t name a single person. That was making any money in multi level marketing. I couldn’t name a single person that stayed with a company long enough for it to matter. Um, and I couldn’t name a single person that felt like when they went to bed at night, [00:20:00] they were doing a good deed and good work and a noble cause they were selling a $285 shake.

Like I don’t know about you guys, but I didn’t know people that were going to spend without convincing and without me abusing my relationship with them to put them in a position where they couldn’t say no to me because they respect me and trust me and I was never going to do that to people.

Erin: Right, right.

What were the positives that you got from that experience?

Amber: Well, the people that did follow me through my integrity of never forsaking the truth through the whole experience, never promising anybody who’s going to make all this crazy money, coaching people to like learn skills, but always having a realistic expectation that integrity and those relationships built and working so hard for so little.

put me in a position and that I’m in now where [00:21:00] I know how to work and I know how to do it for zero dollars and it pays a lot better when you’re not trapped in a comp plan that’s not going to serve you. So those relationships, that integrity and that work ethic carried me through to where I am now, but I’m grateful for learning how to see the red flags so that I can help other people and spare them, um, from, you know, going to the 11th company.

Erin: What do you, what do you think are the red flags of today? What is the paralegal? Like, I want to ask two different versions of Amber, the paralegal Amber and then like the mom, like, intuitive Amber. Do you know what I’m saying? What’s the paralegal Amber say? What does the FTC say as a run

Amber: on the FTC, that’s, see, there is no mom version of this because it’s not even who, like, I don’t even see it for that.

As a person that worked for a law firm for 10 years, When I was looking at these companies, and I’ve evaluated almost every single one of them. I have a notebook where I did a [00:22:00] ton of research. Um, if your retention rate is really low, you, I saw from afar that you’re going to have to replace your business by that much.

Every single month. So you start at the bottom every month. So you don’t have and that’s not something that we create in regular brick and mortar businesses. You want repeat customers or you’re not going to have, you’re going to have the bottom falling out. So that was a red flag. Another red flag was people don’t realize that if you touch a product and then you exchange money for sale of that product, you are required to have a sales certificate license because I have one for construction.

And so if I buy a product and resell it and take the money, I am required to charge sales tax and then collect it and then place it into a separate account and pay it in quarterly to my state. And otherwise, if caught, I would be subject to going to jail. I’m watching

Erin: people. I used to sell wrap. They used to tell us to like, [00:23:00] go make that wrap cash.

In my first company, like, it was going out of style.

Amber: Yeah, you can’t do that. It is illegal. And a lot of people don’t realize that. And there’s no training about it. Um, I mean, in construction, if we were to buy paint, and then we were to resell the paint to a customer, We have to charge sales tax and the sales tax has to be charged at every transaction of money and

Erin: then it has to be with selling 20 toothpaste and some freaking sunless Tanner.

What’s what’s happening there?

Amber: Well, a lot of those exchanges were happening through mediums that were not reporting to the tax agencies like PayPal and Venmo and through messenger on Facebook. But have you noticed lately, all of a sudden they’re being held accountable for a comp for actually tracking that those transactions now because they realized people were using those modes to circumvent their tax responsibility, knowingly or unknowingly, right?

And I was like, I’m not, that [00:24:00] would be like me. I mean, you would need a liquor license with the wine, but that would be like, if I had a liquor license, I would have to charge your liquor store charges you sales tax, even though they pay sales tax when they buy it. Cause it has to be charged at every interval.

And people will say to me. Well, I already paid sales tax on it. That you’re missing the point. You got to charge it when you sell it again for a profit. And there are a lot of companies that are like you buy all the product and then you resell it at whatever value you suggested retail. And then what?

Right. Major, major red flag for me as a license holder of a sales certificate. I get audited by the state quarterly. They’re tracking my bank accounts to make sure that the amount that came in is the amount I’m charging and is going out. I have to, you know, give an accounting for that. And, um, so another red flag, another major red flag.

For us was the idea of this like ground floor [00:25:00] thing. Everyone thinks that that sounds so great, but I know that most businesses in a brick or brick and mortar business, most businesses don’t last past past five years. So for me, that’s a huge risk to take is to go in. And then I think about. All the things that have to be fixed and corrected.

And you are the Guinea pig at your expense, ground floor opportunity. There is absolutely zero enticement for me for there that I’m taking the risk, not them. Do

Erin: you remember calling customer service when we were at the wine business? I think it was. One of, like, the mafia vice president’s grandma, I think she ran customer service.

I think she was on a rotary phone and she answered only a few hours a day and not on the weekends. Do you remember that?

Amber: Um, I had one experience and I, I became customer service because I could not rely on a company that I knew was going to give poor service, put them on hold forever. Or and [00:26:00] not treat the customer like they were right and deserved, um, you know, whatever it was, they weren’t doing that.

So I took it out of my own pocket. If someone’s product broke or if something happened or they didn’t get the correct thing, I made it right. And I know a lot of people do that too, because they don’t have the customer service. They don’t have the support. They don’t have the licenses. I mean, there’s a company right now that’s getting shut down because they’re being sued with a cease and desist for their flagship product.

Flag ship product. That word was, that word is a red flag all in itself. You should have a whole business on one product. Look at us.

Erin: Yeah they are, there is a whole slew of words we could put on a whiteboard that are made up MLM words. What I have experienced working with people in MLM and from MLM and trying to coach them and trying to pull the MLM out of them is that there’s like this MLM dictionary and it’s think about it.

Flagship, [00:27:00] ground floor, um, uh, yeah, right. Upline, you know, there’s, there’s a whole slew of terminology, but once they’re in it for long enough, you can’t get it out of them. It’s literally like a part of their bloodline. And so, especially when they’re on social media, because. What ends up happening is the algorithm changes so that you see exactly what Facebook thinks that you want to see exactly what Facebook thinks is going to keep you on the app for longer.

And sometimes that’s, you know, craziness and sometimes that’s puppies. And, and a lot of times in MLM, it’s other MLM. It’s that hype it’s that, you know, I’ve got a huge announcement coming and it’s that I got a fricking new lamp. I mean, whatever. Right. But. Flagship and, um, ground floor are one of those terms.

Like I, in real business world, I’ve had meetings with people where they’ve argued with me over and over and over again about this whole saturation. Is this, is this saturated? What’s that product going to be like? And [00:28:00] in Missouri, it’s probably already saturated. I’m like, yeah, is Amazon saturated? Like, are you crazy?

Like,

Amber: when Walmart’s parking lot is empty, then we’ll be saturated. Right.

Erin: Right. Well, um, what other, what other things are you seeing right now? Red flag that maybe you would have seen back in wine, but six years, seven years, eight years later, you totally are familiar with.

Amber: So, I remember everyone always saying that, like, you can’t show your paycheck because the companies don’t let you show your paycheck.

And the FTC doesn’t let you show your paycheck. And I’m like, the FTC says that, so you know me, there is nowhere that the FTC says that you can’t produce receipts and proof of what you’re claiming on the internet. And now it comes with disclaimers and it comes with an honest conversation and I highly recommend it be done privately, [00:29:00] um, so that it can’t be misconstrued by onlookers that are outside of the conversation.

There is nowhere it says that so if that is something that your company is saying you’re not allowed to do that is not the FTC that is your company and it’s because they’re probably training you to put out in the internet things like you can make a thousand dollars in seven days because if you do not have the receipts to back it up and you show that you’re not doing that you’ve already put yourself in direct violation.

Right.

Erin: Yeah, I think that I think that to what is trained is averages. Um, what is trained is the lifestyle, the hype, the hope, the stories. Um, I don’t remember who I was chatting with the other day, but it was constantly about. The story or the if she can do it, I can do it. That’s really the only content that’s ever taught there’s no skills that are taught in MLM.

There’s no Um, [00:30:00] you know actual training facets. They’re not teaching finance. They’re not teaching Necessary maybe every once in a while time management, maybe every once in a while communication skills and writing skills and etc. But most of the time the bulk of the training is to how is how to recruit people to a dream

Amber: Is to recruit, manipulate emotions,

Erin: right?

And to sell the emotions. And if you use real numbers, you can’t sell the dream because the dream is actually probably 80% less than what’s put out there. And then what ends up happening to people is they get sucked into that and they they put that on social media and it becomes part of their identity and their and their highlight reel and then they get trapped.

Um, I’m, I’m surprised you never got trapped. I mean, I guess I’m not. You’re very real, but you never got trapped for one moment. Did you look at yourself as totally loyal to the wine business? I mean, you

Amber: stayed for a long time. Oh, yeah. No, I, I did. I, uh, let’s, we’re playing the honest game, right? [00:31:00] Um, I, I have absolutely, um, no respect for myself on one day in my career in wine, and I made a live video.

Because everyone was like, oh, my enroller left while I was in Africa, um, on a mission trip and it was done and I didn’t have much ability to manage the loss or what was going on or the conversation. And so when I came back to the States, I, everyone was looking to me to crack and crumble. Right. And so I went live and I said, that doesn’t break me.

Like I’m not going anywhere just because somebody left. I, I have nowhere to go. Like, I’m not looking for any place. I just got back from Africa. Um, but it definitely was a declaration of like my feet are planted until they weren’t. And so there’s a lot, and I just want to share that because if you’ve made that commitment or you’ve said it, or you put it on the internet, it’s okay to eat your crow.

People [00:32:00] love it when you eat crow because it makes you real.

Erin: Let me tell you, let me, let me tell you about, um, the many hashtags that I used in my career. So I used to wear what’s called a lime green tank top with some sparkles on it that said wrap girl for life or what were some of the phrases, good lord.

Okay, I wore them everywhere. I had a blitz card on my lime green purse that I carried around. Um, I also happened to have a buzz cut, so it all went together really well, but I. I never looked at myself as leaving even though I knew I was working 25 hours a day, even though I knew I was making promises that maybe, you know, I was thinking about this in my bed last night.

I think one of the reasons that I didn’t feel as guilty as I do today, looking back, is that in the time I was working just as hard as everyone else. I was not sitting on top of a mountain, sitting in front of a pool, you know, drinking margaritas while everybody else was doing slave labor. Like, we were digging [00:33:00] ditches together.

So, although I felt bad, I also was like, I’m in it with you. We’re fighting. We’re fighting together. So my loyalty was there until literally one night it wasn’t. And it was like I opened my eyes and was like, I don’t love this place at all. Well, then we went to the next business. You didn’t ever experience the next one It’s it’s no longer in existence in reality because they lost this is how bad it was and and I have people there that I care about that are my friends, but they that company lost a lawsuit again probably this is a common theme lost a lawsuit with the formulator of its product because they took their name and they weren’t paying like the correct amount that they were supposed to pay to the formulator or whatever.

And so they called it a rebranding, but they basically lost the lawsuit with the formulator of their product and had to change their name. Two weeks before we left, I was like, you know, gonna name my baby after the CEO because I had seen him on a video and I had read his book. [00:34:00] And I thought like, I’m following a guy that is good and is pure and is true.

And I’m really, you know, like, I’m a, I want to be a loyal person. And when I’m working. 40 hours a day and killing myself. Like I better damn well believe in what I’m doing. And so it’s like, I just would lie to myself. Like, I just was like, it’s fine. Everything’s fine. He’s awesome. Here we go. And then, you know, all hell broke loose.

And I was like, man, there’s a lot of spiders in this web. I gots to go. So here, wine it is. The one thing I will say about wine is that from day one, I thought they were all a bunch of tchotchkes. Like I, the one thing. That I will give myself credit for is that I was like, this is going to be fun. We’re all alcoholics anyway, because MLM has driven us to drink and we’re exhausted and our adrenals are already failing anyway, so might as well sell what we’re consuming and, and I knew it was something my husband can do, but I knew that they

Amber: were not all of leadership was drunk at 10 am. All of it [00:35:00] was just. It was a very toxic environment. A lot of people using drugs and they had this, you know, party atmosphere. That’s what they wanted to create in New York City and in Vegas. And, and that is not a lifestyle that was good for my family and good for my, you know, for me. And so I’m, I’m grateful that, um, We were able to see our way out of it, but with with dignity in class and eating a little bit of crow and learning some lessons and taking the people that trusted us to, you know, out of it as well in a good way that didn’t hurt anybody because I prepared everybody for the worst right out the gate.

Erin: Yeah. Um, what was the question that I was going to ask you specifically about wine? When did you know it was over?

Amber: Um, six months before I left, when I had realized the gap in the top 10 and realizing what bridge contracts were, [00:36:00] that was a new concept to me. And I learned about what that was, where they pay them a salary in addition to the comp plan, meaning the comp plan wasn’t good and or possible or feasible, and that they were relying on everyone to, you know, build the paychecks for those top people.

So I could prance them around on the stage over and over and over most leadership. Positions most top earners in most companies are on a bridge contract. Most of them are, this is what the CEO told us. He’s like, that’s how they launch businesses. So the people that are parading around on the front lines are people that they’re paying a salary for.

And that really crushed me for the fact that there were people in that room with me that were not necessarily in my organization because it was a group event that were living their whole life just the way that you did, worshipping the ground they walked on, all in, and I was the enemy when I decided that that was not good enough for me or my people, and so I knew that I was out, they could tell that I was out.

So that was when I decided to get out, but there were like other things that were happening to me [00:37:00] where I was like, this doesn’t make any sense. Like I’m making 18 grand a year here spending 10 of it. Let’s just be honest on the trips, the wine, the product, the parties. So I’m making eight grand a year and they featuring, I got asked to speak on MLM nation as like a top performer.

Asked to speak at our event in New Orleans on the stage of the joy theater. There was a poster the size of a building with my face on it. Like doesn’t that mess with you? It messes with you. It will trick you into thinking like you might be onto something here like It’s so not real and then putting me they put me in the businessforhome. org as the top 40 under 35 or whatever it was listed and i’m like if if that is the standard Everybody’s broke And I had an epiphany. I’m like, the whole industry is an illusion. Everyone is poor. The richest people I’ve ever met in any company, the top people, top five, top 10, top three, all of them in debt, bankrupt, losing their cars, [00:38:00] losing everything, losing their marriages.

And it dawned on me that this is an industry wide issue and I’m out.

Erin: I um, we could go on a total rant about the culture um, and the lack of financial preparation and in fact, I think it’s the opposite I don’t even think here’s a theory and I want you to I want you to tell me your thoughts on it I think that companies don’t teach financial literacy and push for the cars and push for the fancy homes and push for the highlight reel and push the pressure because they know that two things are happening.

One, they are appealing to very, um, very, I was going to say the word needy, but very self conscious people. I think that the people that are the most attracted to this life are somewhat high achievers, people that will do anything to feed their kids. I’m not dogging the people that are attracted to this, but I [00:39:00] think they come with a boatload of insecurities.

I think that top, top producers in general, let’s take MLM out of it. I think that top producers in general, 90% of them are actually very insecure with a ton of daddy issues. And that’s what gives them a competitive advantage. So that’s a, that’s a different thought from me. That’s just my own opinion, right?

Yeah. I think that people that are intrinsically motivated oftentimes are intrinsically motivated out of a need to prove themselves. Now, you take that kind of person and put them in this space and give them a bunch of money and then you put them on a poster the size of Montana and put them up on a stage and say how amazing they are.

Well, they have to be amazing. There’s like this expectation that comes with it and you have to live up to that. And so then when paychecks dip and when the tax debt is due, and when you feel like you’re going to have a nervous breakdown, you just keep lying and you just keep adding onto the debt because the expectation is the lady on the poster.

It’s not, you can’t even be a real human and you weren’t taught financial literacy. And so [00:40:00] you don’t know that your business might tank because you’re selling a flagship product that nobody can freaking afford that comes from the same manufacturing company as the other 40 MLMs. I’m getting, you know, kind of in the weeds here, but.

Then you’re stuck, then you’re all in, then you owe them your life. And we literally have, I would, I would almost bet money as we’re talking about money, that the top 1% of MLM is literally in the most debt they’re, they’re not making what they used to. And they’re also drowning in debt simply because the system is built for them to fail.

Do you think that?

Amber: I haven’t met a single person that doesn’t represent that exact fact. And I’ve met a lot now. It’s been four years. Working with people in the industry that have been in it and I asked them their story and they’re like the 13 time car earners. They’re the I’ve earned every trip.

They’re the red bottom shoes across the stage and they’re getting their car re powered. They’re the people that are in so [00:41:00] deep and I do think that they create a trap for you where then they own you. Because you have no other way to get yourself out because you’re 9 to 5. If you quit this and go 9 to 5, you’ll never get out.

This is the only way to make that next, maybe 10. And that’s another thing. They’ll give you a big check, one big check, and, and then it’s gone. And you’re living this life of I’ve made, you know, how many people have I asked? What’s the biggest check you’ve ever made? 10, 000, right? 20, 000. Well, what, how much did you make that year?

28. 35. And so it’s this carrot that it’s like the lottery. They just give you just enough to keep you coming back until you’re back in the hole. Yeah. Brilliant. Really? Oh, it’s super.

Erin: I mean, if you’re a psycho narcissist that’s willing to ruin lives, it’s really brilliant because then you also have a family that has built an entire business off of hope and a life that if they’re no longer living up to it, they can’t [00:42:00] sell the business.

Do you see what I’m saying? Like I know top owners who did two things, filed bankruptcy and then went back to work, but couldn’t tell anyone that they went back to work because then they couldn’t sell the lifestyle, filed bankruptcy and didn’t, didn’t blame the company blamed themselves, even though they were literally set up for that.

You know,

Amber: the cars that are really free and they have to be this super over the top cars that is pigeoning people into a space that they know they can trap them because they know it’s not easy or even possible to maintain this car, but they put the car on you and your family. And I, I have a girl that had the car right and she hasn’t earned the bonus for the car in three years and she can’t afford it and they’re having to cut back on everything for the kids to maintain this lease that’s 1, 000 a month. That’s every dollar that they’re making in the business goes straight to this car that they never wanted to begin with, but had to get it.

It’s [00:43:00] like this cycle.

Erin: You know me. You know me well enough that literally my husband went out and bought a beautiful, fancy car for my birthday.

Amber: I saw the PTSD all over that.

Erin: Oh, poor guy. I mean, this is, you, you know me as a human being. Poor guy bought this beautiful car for me. It was a huge gesture. He drove it up into the driveway.

I proceeded to cry the entire day until he went back to the dealership and got me a minivan. That’s who I am. I wasn’t a minivan lady until I became a minivan lady. And now I’m like, we have two minivans. That’s how, that’s how devoted we are. We were devoted in MLM. We’re devoted to the Toyota Sienna Hybrid, baby.

But at the time in MLM and that company, I got a rank and I got it really fast and I needed people to know that we were moving quickly because the only way I was going to be able to build my business was for people to understand they could be successful and I had never really been successful. And so.

I needed that. I needed that as my story. I [00:44:00] went out and got a Lexus. I don’t care about a Lexus, but I got an SUV. It was 900 a month. It was the most irresponsible decision I’ve ever made. I don’t make irresponsible financial decisions. This in my mind was for my business when I look back. And then how soon did I lose that rank?

And how soon did I have to get rid of that lease? It was a 900 car payment for the next years. Like I drove around, I drove around a 900 car payment with a sticker on the back for a company that I worked for. Four months, you

Amber: know, yeah. And it’s a trap and the car responsibility when it’s on you and it’s more than you can afford without that income.

And it’s a trap and people don’t know and then they’re, you know, they tell you, what do they tell you when you get in? Come in and make your story as fast as possible. Well, in order to do that, you have to do things that are not duplicatable. Coming in due time and I don’t believe I just believe that people can build [00:45:00] a solid business or a lifestyle for their family without any of that.

Erin: Yeah, I totally agree. Today, right now, why do you think people are still falling for it?

Because I’ve been around for so long, I’ve almost gotten jaded to the point where I think it’s common sense. Like, I think some of the things we’re talking about are common sense, but I feel like it’s worse. I feel like right now it’s worse than ever. Why do you think that is? I

Amber: think the economy, look at the economy.

There is, when you put a rat in a cage, what happens? Everybody in this economy is a rat in a cage, and we’ve got people promising that they’re going to help them bridge the gap, and they have no choice unless they want to go get that third job and leave their kids even more. It’s this or nothing. And so they’re choosing to believe that this person says saying it’s going to help them will help them and they’re willing to do whatever it takes.

And I appreciate [00:46:00] that. I respect that. I respect a mama that says, I will like you and I both agree. We are moms that will walk through brick walls to get wherever we need to go to take care of our kids. It’s just what’s going to happen. And that’s what has happening in the industry right now more than ever because eggs are $10.

Right. And because rent is $2,500 for a two and a half bedroom, like, two and a half, because they’re literally selling half bedrooms out here right now. Right.

Erin: Yeah, and because people are homeschooling, and because after COVID, a lot of people left the workforce, and the workforce is different than it used to be, and people are exhausted, and they’re completely burnt out, so I also think they’re also just desperate for something.

That, that was me, and that was you, right? You had a Christmas bonus, oh, you know, we’re gonna… We’re going to, you know, not IOU or whatever it was. Mine was, you better, I mean, look at my hair today. You better wear more makeup and do more with your hair. Like mine wasn’t necessarily financial, but it was a desperation that I think people are feeling today.

I think eggs are 10 bucks. [00:47:00] And I think that people had have had an eye opening of like what life could be like if it weren’t the way that it is currently Um, but I just I

Amber: could never go back. I get it. So what when when we went home and did our companies and we were home and it was at least something You know, here’s another reason I didn’t need much money to stay home when I thought about it I was grossing almost 900 after paying everything.

I was bringing home 500, but 300 of it went to daycare. So 250 a week, I needed to make 1, 000 a month in order to stay home with my children. That’s why, because you can make a thousand dollars a month in almost any company. If you’re willing to forsake integrity and sell a dream of making way more than a thousand, no one, you’re barely going to get to a thousand.

And if you’re making a thousand, you’re the best of the best. I want them to know that if you’re making a thousand dollars a month in an MLM company. You are the best of the best. You are a rock star and I’m proud of you because that is so hard and [00:48:00] you’re doing what you got to do to take care of the kids and I get it

Erin: that true that.

Okay, one last question. I swear to God, I’ll leave you alone. Um, I’m asking specifics because you’re an FTC lady and a policy lady and a paralegal lady and you’ve already got all the facts. Um, the email scam. Okay, so I’m going to call it the email scam because in my mind, there is nothing all about it that’s not a scam. So there’s this new thing where you can send emails for 10 minutes a day and make blah, blah, blah, but there’s no product. There’s nothing to it. You’re buying the ability to maybe make some money. What do you say about that? I’m just curious. Maybe it’s totally legit. Um,

Amber: So this is cut

Erin: it out if it’s if it’s legit i’m cutting

Amber: it out because I have no idea It already the reason why I know it isn’t legit is because everybody’s selling it like an MLM That’s why but I actually don’t know.

I actually don’t know because let me tell you another fun [00:49:00] fact when I decided that you know I’m gonna Walk through brick walls to take care of my family. I worked for a company called word gigs and I wrote articles for four dollars an article and they were keyword concentration for search engine optimization, but I wasn’t out there.

So either

Erin: way, every time I go on Google and like look up how to lose 12 pounds by tomorrow, I think maybe you wrote

Amber: that article. I probably did. I literally think about it and I made like 900 on average a month writing these awful stupid articles that were just, I mean, they have AI to do it now, they don’t need you, but that’s just it.

So when I see something like that and I’m like, They’re the way that it’s being presented on the Internet indicates to me that it’s something that we’re, we’re missing some really important pieces here and it’s very brand new and where has it been all this time and all of a sudden you’re referring other people and it just sounds like one of those things is going to build and build and build and here’s what people don’t understand.

FTC legal background. What we used to do for [00:50:00] people is create different LLCs, different companies, different S-corps over and over and over. And when this was in trouble, we’d move everything over to this one and let that one get sued and there were no assets in it, and all the victims were victims that got nothing because there was nothing in that LLC.

But you know what they did? We moved them over here and we started it all over again. And that is what you’re seeing in the MLM industry. If you only knew, if you peeled back the curtain, you would see every single person that’s in every one of these companies has been in their hand, has been in every other one.

They’re all in it together. They live in Cabo, they hang out, and they’re laughing at you with their. Christmas to all their rich neighbors while you’re out here slinging 200 freaking packets of stickers and tongue, tongue cheese and like whatever else, right? Wild. And it’s, and it’s, it’s genius. And there’s the sucker born every day and I don’t want it to be our friends.

Erin: There’s a sucker born every day and I, I don’t want it to be our friends. I love it. Okay. Thank you friend. This was brilliant. You’re brilliant.